I posit that David Cronenberg is a horrid filmaker, relying on shock tactic, misogyny, homophobia, fear of sex, sensationalism, and perversion to carry his so-called films. Your assignment is to defend him against these accusations... GO!
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 12:43 AMFuck you asshole! Hows that for a defense? -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 12:57 AMfunny, I don't remember that tactic from my Debate 101 class....
you get an F!!! you can try a make up exam at a later date.
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 2:41 AMWhy should I defend him?
I like Cronenberg, and enjoy watching his movie.
If you dislike, it's not a problem (but maybe you've joined the wrong tribe)
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 2:42 AMEhm... Uh-Ops, you're the mod :)
So, in fact, I think you like Cronenberg and you like procavate...
Ok, I'm too lazy for this stuff...
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 12:02 PMwell, apparently my attempt to get some conversation going here was an extreme failure. No, I don't think cronenberg sucks... I was offering up some of the arguments often leveled against Mr. Cronie, and I assumed the fact that I am the *moderator* of this tribe would give a bit more indication as to the motives behind this thread. I merely hoped to get a bit of conversation going. oh well... back to the drawing board. move along... nothing to see here. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 12:05 PMmisogyny???? where??? i never thought that! infact, many of his women are empowered by the events in his films...for example, eXistenZ, jennifer jason lee kicks ass! she's the hero & the villain all at once. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 12:29 PMdead ringers is the film where the charge of misogyny is most often aimed. read through parts of this essay:
PSYCHOLOGICAL DETERMINISM IN DEAD RINGERS
www.davidcronenberg.de/psycho...rs.html
I would say that any traces of misogyny in his films are an unearthing and display of the traits, not a celebration. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 8:52 PMdead ringers is a tough watch, very emotionally draining by the end, but utterly spectacular IMHO. cronenberg has stated that even though one uncomfortable issue in the film is gynecological examination (and more, as the film moves forward), more men are upset by it than women. this is most likely due to mens inability to recognize or relate to the process for what it is, as it is veiled in social secrecy for the most part.
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 1:46 PMAlso, though it was based on a semi-historical occurence (W.S. Burroughs really did shoot his wife), the re-occuring William Tell Game scene in Naked Lunch could be construed as misogyny, as perhaps could the suggestion that women are actually agents of some giant aquatic centipede race.
"I would say that any traces of misogyny in his films are an unearthing and display of the traits, not a celebration."
Ditto. He explores abnormal psychologies and creeping sociological undercurrents which fascinate (and probably horrify) him. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, December 14, 2003 - 8:48 PMyeppers. reading his "cronenberg on cronenberg" now, and he states as much. the issues you see that horrify and infuriate you, are his own fears and horrors manifest for dissection on the screen in front of you. a cinematic autopsy (or biopsy, more precisely).
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Tue, December 16, 2003 - 7:48 AMBurroughs was King Misogynist of the Universe after all. If you're making a movie even loosely based on his life, you're remiss to leave that out...
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I think that most great controvercial filmmakers, including Cronenberg, make movies about what fascinate them. And what fascinates them is what horrifies them. Peckinpah is another good example. He got flak for the graphic violence in his work, even though The Wild Bunch in particular was intended as an anti-violence film....
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Fri, April 16, 2004 - 7:17 AM>>misogyny???? where???
Uh, The Brood.
Cronie was going through a divorce at the time and put a lot of his emotions toward his ex in that film. He even admits it. You should be able to see the analogy: she makes crazy demands, she turns the children against him (the 'kids' react to her emotions), you have to walk on eggshells around her, her jealously at the slightest insinuation that he is seeing another woman, etc.
The crazy dementia of the mother of the fatherless children is a classic 'bitch' stereotype. Like Fatal Attraction but a million times better. And her logic and selfishness is schizo. She is an emotional time bomb, going off. Hell, I can relate to that. Every guy I have ever known going through a divorce generally says the same thing, they relate to their ex like the protagonist in The Brood does to his.
The movie is about the manifestation of emotion through 'technology', a technology of course created by a man, with disasterous effects. It's the classic "science shouldn't go in the area of god" or what have you theme, (ie the Hollywood Frankenstein theme.)
But it is exactly this misogyny that makes the film so good. Sure it's misogyny but he isn't a misogynist.
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Homophobia?
Tue, December 16, 2003 - 7:50 AMI've seen all these accusations before, and see their roots as well (even if I disagree). But I fail to see how one could argue for homophobia... Examples? -
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Re: Homophobia?
Tue, December 16, 2003 - 2:27 PMthe most specific example of charges of homophobia came from naked lunch, strangely enough. Cronenberg utilized some conventions that shifted the responsibility of bill lee's homosexuality away from himself, and on to outside forces, in this case represented by talking anus typewriter agents. Also the fact that the homosexuality had been tamed from the scenarios that were in the book.
taken from a paper written on the subject (google'd it):
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David Cronenberg's Somatic Dialectic
by
Doug Mann
"Cronenberg's early films have led some commentators to see in his monsters misogynist or homophobic creative intentions. David Sanjek, discussing Shivers in the light of his first four films, notes that they all feature women who have been labelled as "monsters" due to some male action: witness the sexually rapacious women in Shivers, Rose in Rabid, Nola Carveth in The Brood,and Kim Obrist in Scanners (1996: 57-8).(9) He goes on to condemn the lesbian kiss between Betts and Janine as proof that if a lesbian relationship exists in Dr. Hobbes' (Cronenberg's?) world, it would be initiated violently, and only between two "monstrous" women (67), concluding in the end that it appears that many of Cronenberg's films "construct narratives whose story-lines exist on the basis of the victimization of women who are made the objects of male power" (70).
Andrew Parker focusses on Rabid instead, linking monstrosity, the media reaction to the AIDS crisis, and national and sexual difference. He comments that "...Cronenberg has consistently been drawn into the same monstrous terrain where sexuality grafts itself onto nation, the same terrain the mass media have exploited since the advent of the AIDS crisis" (1993: 210). Parker sees inRabid a remarkable anticipation of all the fears, all the "murderous details", that would come to dominate the American media's reaction to the AIDS epidemic, notably how sex is linked with death in the syringe/penis that Rose extrudes from her armpit when hungry for blood (216). Oddly, he parallels the sexual difference between straights and gays to the instabilities within Canada's borders, suggesting that Montreal (the site of Rabid) has a singular, sexualized role in Anglo-Canadian imagery. His youthful travels north of the border have convinced him that Quebec is an Anglo-Canadian metaphor for lustful desires and inner subversion, for homosexuality (213, 222).(10)"
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Tue, December 16, 2003 - 2:05 PMWell, actually, I think a case could be made, in your favor, if you based it only on Crash.
Is there proof positive that it was actually made by the same man who made They Came From Within, Dead Ringers, & Naked Lunch? I can't see it in the film. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Wed, January 28, 2004 - 10:32 AMJust take a look at his stunning film, 'Blue Velvet', and it'd put all those accusations to rest.
Wait a minute....
Wrong director.
You're right. Cronenberg sucks.
Except for Videodrome. And Existenz, and Crash, and......
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Mon, February 2, 2004 - 6:17 AMhmmm... first, I'm new here. Do Tribe moderators always harsh on the tribe focus? Weird.
Anyway, I can't see "horrid" as a way to describe Cronenberg as a "filmmaker". Try Franco maybe? As a filmmaker, he's incredibly talented. The subject matter might not be up your alley, so maybe that is your issue? I mean, really, if he were simply "relying" on your list of "shock tactics", then he would surely make much more simple-minded films; to which there are a hundred lesser directors worthy of your attack. Cronenberg certainly has issues, and that is why he trying to discuss them openly in his films. (I think he'd be the first to admit that too!) His films might have elements of all the "shock tactics" you list, but he is certainly not relying on them; he's *using* them to get at something he feels that he can't get at in other mediums. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Mon, February 2, 2004 - 10:00 PMhey greg, thanks for posting... if you read the rest of the thread, you'll see I am not saying that cronenberg sucks, I was putting my ACTING hat on a spewing forth an accusation that has been leveled at the man elsewhere... it was meant to get a little conversation going since this tribe gets a little *quiet* sometimes. I suppose I should have expected a bit of confusion, but honestly, I am a bit taken aback that fans of The Cronenberg Experiment are so susceptible to a bit if fairly obvious provocative technique. As far as I can tell, even garrett up at the top there still thinks I am an asshole.
Let it be known now and forevermore that I consider David Cronenberg to be one helluva filmaker, and I fanatically view everyone of his films and cameo acting appearances to load up on more of that sweet sweet mugwump juice. LONG LIVE THE NEW FLESH!! -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Tue, February 3, 2004 - 6:43 AMhaha! cool! nice tactic. I prolly saw that, but was so blinded by rage, that it didn't really sink in!
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Re: Misogyny & Homophobia
Fri, February 6, 2004 - 10:15 PMGreetings all! My first post here.
If someone thinks Cronenberg actually "sucks" [not including the moderator] than I wouldn't spend a whole lot of time arguing that case since everybody is entitled to their own opinion.
I've not read any books on Cronenberg so I'm not sure what he's admitted to or not, but I'd be blown away if he did admit to being /suffering/or having "issues" with women in the context of "misogyny." I'm going out on a limb here, willingly, since it's been a while since I've seen any of his films, sans "Naked Lunch" and "The Brood" which just played locally at the theaters here. Back to accusations of "hating women" in Cronen's films; I don't know if I've ever interpreted any such thing in his films, particularly "Dead Ringers" or "Naked Lunch" and surely not in the latter. The very end of "Naked Lunch" is a huge triumph of his love found from the abyss of his imaginary "Interzone" identity crisis. Granted there is both sexual & identity conflicts fueling the plot of the Henry Lee character throughout Naked Lunch, but that does not confine him to a one dimensional misogynist or homophobe.
In defense of "Crash," that movie is incredible,yet if one is seeking exploding heads or genre obedient horror tactics, then I could see the disappointment one could experience after watching this film.
Coincidentally, the films of DC I care for the least are "Dead Zone" and "The Fly." Though I appreciate them, I still find them a bit lackluster after their first viewing.
-respectfully
[meaning; I don't mean to piss any of you off for having different opinions.]
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Tue, February 10, 2004 - 1:16 PMHe is dangerous, because he has a philosophy... -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sat, February 21, 2004 - 1:12 AMI think that he is a genius...
but certainly he sucks directing actors... he's terrible.
I've seen all his movies and I can say that the only two actors that did something decent are Jeremy Irons in "Dead Ringers" & "Madame Butterfly" (but probably because he is a genius too and there's no way for him to do his job wrong)... and, how strange, Robocop acts quite well in Naked Lunch.
His other films are marvelous, but very often the acting spoils them a little bit. The actor of the Fly does a terrible job... it's great that the make-up covers his expressions in the middle of the movie... because he is laughable (and it's not his fault... it's obvious that Cronemberg was unable to direct him in a popper way).
However, I do think that directing actors is a skill that he is still developing and in each movie he gets a bit better... the acting in "Spider" is almost decent... but still far from what a good director should achieve. I still love cronemberg though. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sat, February 21, 2004 - 1:23 PM<<The actor of the Fly does a terrible job... it's great that the make-up covers his expressions in the middle of the movie... because he is laughable (and it's not his fault... it's obvious that Cronemberg was unable to direct him in a popper way).>>
How can you say that about the Brundle Fly!? I think this is one of Jeff Goldblum's better roles. Besides being generally hilarious, he gives a manic, amped-up, bug-eyed(even before make up) performance. It's a credit to his acting ability, that you sympathize with him when he is a slightly mad, driven, scientist(although it's hard to truly sympathize with any man thats sleeping with Gina Davis), hate him when he turns into a seemingly coke-addled megalomaniac, and then sympathize with him again as he succombs to the transformation. Being able to follow his character's arc through all of the most disgusting changes, is as much due to Goldblum's acting as it is to Chroneberg's writing. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sat, February 21, 2004 - 7:50 PMIrons was great in his DC roles, but what about Fiennes, Byrne, Richardson, and Redgrave in "Spider?" Woods in "Videodrome?" Leigh in "Existenz?" Walken in "The Dead Zone?"
Sure the acting was terrible in his early movies - that's what usually happens when you get an inexperienced director working with an amateur cast in an unfamiliar genre... In his later films, he's handled his cast exceptionally well. He even gave a good performance himself in "Last Night." -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, February 22, 2004 - 11:03 AMits seems to me that he has more skill at directing men than women overall... with the exception of Judy Davis in naked Lunch and Jennifer Jason Leigh in eXistenz, most of the female roles were played kinda flat.... -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, February 22, 2004 - 10:34 PMI think I can agree with you...
The girl of "The Fly" does really a bad job.
A perfect example of the above is her expression of "disgust" and "panic" when Bundle spits (or vomits) acid on his food. Her face after he does it is simply fantastic... they should add a photo of that face in the definition of "over-acting" at the dictionary. It is impossible for me to look at her and avoid laughing.
The weird contradiction is that Irons does probably on of the best actings of his career in "Dead Ringers" (I do specially like the scene in which one of the twins wakes up and discovers that the other one is dead but tries to deny it for himself).
I don't think that it's "heretic" towards our God (Cronemberg) to say that directing actors is not really his greatest miracle. He's not a dumb God, so probably he knows it. -
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Re: Cronenberg Sucks!!
Sun, April 18, 2004 - 3:13 PM> ... her expression of "disgust" and "panic"
> when Bundle spits (or vomits) acid on
> his food. Her face after he does it is
> simply fantastic ...
> It is impossible [to] avoid laughing.
Right: that scene was comic relief.
After the reaction shot, Goldblum's
deadpan "that's disgusting" was the
funniest moment in the movie.
Your criticism is unfair. The whole movie was deliberately camp, and the acting and direction reflected this. The new-age crap Brundlefly started spouting after the merger was brilliant: you wouldn't blink twice hearing those exact words over lunch in LA.
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Re: with the exception of Judy Davis in naked Lunch and Jennifer Jason Leigh
Tue, October 19, 2004 - 9:32 PM[The Dredging Up Old Topics maneuver]
I'd argue that those two actresses are generally better than average to begin with. I mean, getting back back back with old Cronenberg movies, he had Debbie Harry and Marilyn Chambers; which may have been a different kind of psychological horror with which to deal... -
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Re: with the exception of Judy Davis in naked Lunch and Jennifer Jason Leigh
Wed, January 19, 2005 - 5:40 PMhehehhehe
Yeah, but Debbie Harry was classic in VIDEODROME
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